Source[]
Where did most of the content for this page come from? It seems highly detailed to me.Tiailds 20:28, October 2, 2010 (UTC)
- It came from the All Systems University website. Acaeton 01:32, July 8, 2011 (UTC)
Origins of Races[]
In Andromeda (and the predecessor, Genesis II), many concepts come from very clear sources. This does not make it a worse series. Gene Roddenberry has time and again proven that he can incorporate good concepts into his series, still making it better. Hell, Star Trek even used known SF authors so they could incorporate their styles and concepts; this makes Star Trek such a good series!
The concepts behind the Andromeda races are:
- Magog: Orks by JRR Tolkien
- Spirtis of the Abbyss: Sauron
- Vedrans: Elves of Tolkien
- Nietzscheans: Morthans by long-time Star Trek author David Gerrold, who also wrote "Troubles with Tribbles" and "More Troubles, more Tribbles" - amongst many others.
I would prefer to read about these origins here. So am I allowed to put them in?
(The extreme-matriarchal society of the original "Genesis 2" was an anti-thesis of John Norman's Gor series, a bestseller at the time when it came out.) --141.70.81.136 16:35, July 7, 2011 (UTC)
Roddenberry's work has zero to do with Tolkein.Darkseid253 22:01, July 7, 2011 (UTC)
- I'm going to have to agree with Darkseid on that one. The concepts behind the Andromeda races were created by Gene Roddenberry in the 1970s. While I'm sure he might have been influenced in one way or another, he only wrote down sketchy details about the entire series. When his ideas were discovered and revived about 28 years later, writers and directors seriously fleshed out the races. Writers Zack and Ash were responsible for a huge chunk of Andromeda canon, and literally wrote the definitive texts on the ships, culture, technology, and races in the Universe. And they created most aspects of the Andromeda universe in their own way that usually involved ancient myths and wordplay. And I'm sure that there are some clever homages to other fantasty and sci-fi authors. As a matter of fact, I know there are many references to other sci-fi series.
Also, 141.70.81.136, can you explain your reasoning behind the comparisons? If they make sense, you can stick them in the article under "Trivia." Acaeton 01:38, July 8, 2011 (UTC)
In reality much of Roddenberry's as far as Andromeda is concerned draws on Christian religious symbolism. The word "magog" originates from the bible, "magog" in the book of revelation is said to be one of the nations that fights on the side of evil in the battle of armageddon. In the "Coda" script Trance refers to herself and her people as the "lucifers" and Harper then asks her if that means the Spirit of the Abyss is really god. Which is an interesting touch considering the fact that the Spirit of the Abyss is more of an embodyment of chaos and destruction(the devil) in the TV series. Captain Hunt becomes a messianic figure particularly in seasons four and five. And since Dylan is betrayed by some one close to him(G. Rhade) so if one goes a little further into that christ-like symbolism Rhade is a Judas to Dylan's Jesus.
Darkseid253 05:37, July 8, 2011 (UTC)
- I do not see what being written in the 1970s has to say against having references to Lord of the Rings, which came out in 1955 and is one of the most influential books ever written. From my informations (and I would like to have them if you should have other info), all concepts fleshed out were written into Genesis II (1973) and Planet Earth (1974).
- The Tyranians of Genesis II are the predecessors of the Nietzscheans of Andromeda, but just a form of "Mutants with 2 navels".
- The Nietzschean traits - "genetically improved" humans gone rogue, with deception and ruse as major cultural traits, on a mission to enslave humanity and elaborate emphasis on eugenics - seem to be the rework of the Tyranians by the 21th century rewriters. And in those traits, they are so similar to the core concepts of David Gerrold's 1990 Morthans that it is no coincidence.
- Of course, the name of the Magog comes from the bible's Gog and Magog. But those were not an artificially created corrupted race in order to bring forth the reign of "evil", which alignment pervades to their appearance. The Magog created by the Abyss (a name from Greek mythology) are very similar to Tolkien's Orks created by Morgoth.
- The Spirit of the Abyss with his red glowing eyes calls for a comparison to Sauron, even if you only consider the books. However, at the time of Andromeda's production, The Lord of the Rings film trilogy was in production also and covered in many magazines. It is no far-fetched speculation that the writers of Andromeda especially made allusions to Tolkien's imagery to "ride the LOTR wave".
- The Vedrans are beings of good above human comprehension, having secluded themselves from the human worlds. Their goodness transcends their appearance. Humans can experience them, but never understand them, even while they are fighting alongside them - "Gods to touch". This is exactly Tolkien's concept of the Elves, who at the end of the trilogy exit the human world to the west.
- The matriarchal society of Planet Earth is a counterconcept to Gor, from which the first 7 volumes were published by DelRey/Bantam in 1966-1972. At the time and later, it was a bestselling series (creating the paradox that both male-dominant BDSM series Gor by John Norman and Marion Zimmer Bradley's feminist-oriented fantasy were the two bestselling series of DAW books then).
- I hope that satisfies you, Acaeton? - Any fantasy that has "zero to do with Tolkien" is so special it is subsumed as "non-Tolkinesque fantasy", and that is a VERY different style from most contemporary fantasy, eg. Michael Moorcock. If you subtract from that fantasy whose authors knew Tolkien and deliberately avoided his concepts, the list of "non-Tolkinesque Fantasy" gets even more narrow. By comparison, Andromeda is rather orthodox when it comes to Tolkien's concept (as explained above). --141.70.81.136 01:12, July 9, 2011 (UTC)
- You are aware the Gene Roddenbery didn't write the scripts for the show. Roddenbery is credited because he came up with the general ideas that writers created the show around. It's possible the writers might have been slightly influenced by LOTR however you presented no evidence to specifically link the Andromeda series to LOTR. Mutants, glowing red eyes these are incredibly vague concepts many shows and movies, books, etc. feature far too many to state that LOTR was responsible for them.
- Just because the races from the various series are similar doesn't mean they were directly related. Furthermore to say that words like "magog" are an allusion to sources like the bible does not mean that it copies those sources.
- You did not meet the burden of proof.Darkseid253 04:24, July 9, 2011 (UTC)
Hm. Acaeton 15:24, July 11, 2011 (UTC)
Views[]
Okay, not a fan of this show, but I was interested in watching it having seen a few eps years ago, but the writers of this show obviously misunderstood or just blatantly ignored large parts of Nietzsche's philosophies. Really off putting. This article is highly biased. The show never mentioned Dawkins, for example, and yet he's placed alongside people he does not agree with. Social Darwinism is a perversion of Darwin's theory of evolution, yet Darwin is used interchangeably with Social Darwinism. At best the author of the article is ignorant of Dawkins's description of natural selection as "the survival of the fit enough" and his support of social justice. At worst, it is an attempt to denigrate the prominent biologists.
Why is Rhdae the image for the page when so much of the series is built aroiund Tyr? He's the father of the reincarnation of the Prgenator and plays a way larger role than Either of the Rhade's. 173.11.16.153 21:57, June 25, 2015 (UTC)MTH
- I think it has to do with fans' perception of which one was the main character for the role both of them played (heavy-hitting, agressive, emotinally challenged but philosophically inclined tough-guy--more or less Worf). The actor who potrayed Tyr pulled out of the series in season four and the writers/directors went out of their way to humiliate and destroy the character (including dumping any potential development on his son's storyline). Although as a supporting charcter for most of the time, Rhade was present throughout the series in a crucial role and never suffered the evisceration of Tyr. Not that it particularly matters--the image could and should be any Nietzschean representing the physical charactaristics of their race--but my theory is that a fan who felt Rhade was the bigger character chose the image. 60.42.2.190 07:36, December 5, 2016 (UTC)
"kluge"[]
At the end of the "Overview" I'd like to append: ", whom the Nietzscheans conversely deride as kluge." but it seems like I can't edit any of the article text anonymously (or maybe the editor just isn't compatible with epiphany?); and it's not worth making an account over (or investigating further). I do think it's as worthwhile to include that the racism goes both ways. 60.42.2.190 07:18, December 5, 2016 (UTC)
Similar Race/Subset of Humanity concepts[]
I'm a bit astonished that pretty obscure References like the Wing Commander "Navigator's Guild" (yes i compare it to Dune) are brought up, but the very very close parallel of the CLANS from Battletech/Mech Warrior did not make it as a prime comparison... Warrior Race with weird ethics and skyhigh superiority complex, genetically adapted/bred, hereditary clan names and even the Clan and Subsets of Clan structure can be found there, a long time before Andromeda made it to TV. They also attack humanity without warning to take over the power in the entire human part of the galaxy...62.143.204.230 00:05, 7 February 2024 (UTC)